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She's 16 years old, so it's just like knowing where
the mines are laid. I'll hopefully work with her for a
little bit and wait until she turns 18, if I can-if
people don't start swimming around her trying to
smell blood in the water-because it's easier to
work with a kid that's over 18.
Audience Member: When we are songwriters, we are
in our little room at home and we get a listing from
TAXI, you sit there and spend all this brain time thinking,"Is this good enough?"And then you listen to
what's out there [on the radio] and you think,"A lot of
this isn't good enough."So is it best for a songwriter
just to start sending songs in? Because you can say,"I
can do this."The songs I'm hearing that people are
accepting out there on the radio are not that great as
far as... So just send your stuff in instead of sitting
there and beating yourself up over the head going,
"Gee, is this lyric right? Is this the way I should produce
it?"I'm listening to stuff out there that I would never
accept as a producer. I would never put it on an LP, but
you think it's great. And he says,"Well, you've got to
write a good song."What's a good song?
Suzan: If you don't like the referenced artist, don't
pitch. If you don't understand the aesthetics, you
approach it from a contemptuous place, and if you
are not connected with what you're pitching and
the template that you are pitching for, don't pitch!
You're not the right person. Until you understand
and have an appreciation for the aesthetics of that
listing, and of that Pop thing, you're not the right
writer, because you're not connected to it, and the
listener hears that. Pitch things that you actually
like; pitch for projects that you're connected to,
because then you can find what's common between
you and that song.
Jamie: I also really believe that what you have just
said is something you hear all the time from other
writers. I mean, it's a totally legitimate thought. It's
just dangerous, because the reality is that in our
business-especially when you don't have connections and you can't get into the proverbial
[writer/producer] camps and stuff-the only thing
that you've got going for you is how good you are. A
lot of those songs that you think are crap... a lot of
them are written by the camps, and a lot of them
are written by the artist. You're not writing with the
artist, so you've got to beat what they have on their
record.

anywhere with...
Jamie: They don't like different in what aspect
though? What do you mean? Is it a Polka when
they're looking for a Dance song?
I think what he's saying is the listing might say,"Looking for Pop hits a la Christina,"and the screener might
say,"This song has some merit, but it's just not right
for this pitch." And he's frustrated and thinking,
"Why don't you send it to the label or artist anyway
and let them decide that?"
Judy: Could I say something? I've plugged songs
all my life, and I can't tell you how many times I
have sat in front of an A&R guy and I've said,
"Here, how 'bout this?" And he says, "I love the
song, but it's not right for the project." I hear
that all the time, right? It's just one little criticism, one little critique. So go back and find

"If Clive Davis heard a song and he
loved it, he didn't care who published
it or who wrote it."
-Shelly Peiken
something that's better for the project, or find
out why it wasn't right for the project. That's a
critique, OK? You've got to go back and figure
out why it wasn't right for the project and get a
little closer. But you just are going to have to
suck it up sometimes. And again, I would really
caution everybody in the room about the, "I hate
everything on the radio and I can write things better
than that" [syndrome]. You're talking about an
industry and a community that you want to be
part of. You might not like every song out there,
but those people have worked just as hard, if not
harder, in doing what they are doing. So I think
that having a positive attitude and thinking, "I
can't wait to get into this industry. I can't wait to
write a hit song and learn more so that I can be
better than everybody." There's an attitude! But
be really careful about dishing on the industry
that you want to get into...or that you are creating, actually. Because you guys are creating the
next industry.
Jamie: Judy was my publisher for nine years,
and there were times when she didn't like something. "Like, really? You must be having a bad
day." We just didn't see eye-to-eye on what was
right for a project.

Shelly: You've got to be better, or different.
Audience Member: But if I'm different, TAXI won't
accept it because it's not in line with the listing. That's
the problem you get into. How can I go beyond that?
In other words, do I say,"This is not like it, and I'm
sending you a song that's not..."They're not going to
accept it. You have to be within the norm. You can't go
52

Judy: I was protecting him, OK? My job as a
publisher was to protect him. And if I didn't
think that the song represented him well
enough, if I sent it to an A&R guy and they didn't like it, that's his name, that's his reputation.
So rather than, "Oh great, they're gonna send
me another Jamie Houston song. I hated the last

three." It's like, no. I wanted him to get the best
shot that he could. I was his mirror.
Audience Member: So you're just saying do the best
you can, have a positive attitude, and just keep
pushing it in until the right one hits.
Jamie: And don't come with the attitude, "It's
just as good as that piece of crap." What does that
say about what your... That's the wrong attitude.
Shelly: But it's important what Suzan said
about working within the boundaries of what
resonates with you. If I try to write something...
For a few years I was "chasing," trying to sound
just like Dr. Luke. I can't sound like Dr. Luke, I
can't compete with that. What my lane is, a different kind of lane, I know where I do well. I do
well when I'm emotional, when I admit to things
that are pathetic inside me. But I can't compete
in the Dr. Luke lane, and the more I try, the
more of a fool I make of myself. Write what resonates with you-not to say never try something
else-because you can try something else and
find that you like that lane too. You've got to
experiment. But you know inside you where you
can compete, and if you're not loving what
you're applying for, it's not going to work.
Audience Member: I'm here with my daughter, and
my daughter is, I think, a far better writer and
singer where she is right now in her life than I ever
was, and I want to see her do well. This is our last
day here, and I'm here sitting here trying to think
how can I get what she does into somebody's hands
that won't ruin it. I'm a product of the '80s, I'm trying to produce her songs, I'm trying to make her
tracks, and I'd like to not have five years of me
doing that and realize that I wish I could have find
somebody else. So, if you were me, what would you
do?
Shelly: How old is she?
She's 20. She's sitting right there in the front. She
lives here in L.A.
Shelly: Honestly, I would say, don't depend on
your dad. Get out there in the world; play wherever you can, anytime you can, for no money.
Live the life, and your path will reveal itself.
Suzan: Meet other writers in Los Angeles.
There's a community. But I do agree, you've got
to cut the chord with your dad. And it's very
hard for you, because...the dynamic. Because
your competition is alone, and there's a hunger
you have to have, and an edge you have to have to
make it. It's always hard to do it when you have a
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Recording - August 2014

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